tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post1791265618517535419..comments2024-03-27T03:32:53.817-05:00Comments on Euangelion: N.T. Wright, Paul Helm and the Ordo SalutisMichael F. Birdhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09713482855679578651noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-61171097161972634732007-07-06T01:44:00.000-05:002007-07-06T01:44:00.000-05:00Thanks Rabbi. Good suggestion.Thanks Rabbi. Good suggestion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-13673882639414236072007-07-05T23:07:00.000-05:002007-07-05T23:07:00.000-05:00Jason, I think Wright talks about sanctification p...Jason, I think Wright talks about sanctification plenty. He just doesn't use the term much.<BR/><BR/>I suppose you could start with his Romans commentary and read his notes on chapter 13....Rabbi Saulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17698627339947358840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-13409890138411483092007-07-05T15:58:00.000-05:002007-07-05T15:58:00.000-05:00Daniel. Where then would I go to find out what Wri...Daniel. Where then <I>would</I> I go to find out what Wright thinks about sanctification. It's not a subject that comes up much in relation to him.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-2494314970331005482007-07-05T12:34:00.000-05:002007-07-05T12:34:00.000-05:00Jason,I think that sanctification wasn't in Wright...Jason,<BR/><BR/>I think that sanctification wasn't in Wright's discussion because Paul doesn't mention it in Rom 8. Wright is giving an exegesis of that passage it seems to me: foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification, glorification.J. R. Daniel Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14000174430575970585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-17373055750694776832007-07-02T14:26:00.000-05:002007-07-02T14:26:00.000-05:00Thanks for pointing us to Paul Helm's post.Paul's ...Thanks for pointing us to Paul Helm's post.<BR/>Paul's point about the difference between what is logically distinct and what is temporally distinct is important. I haven't finished thinking this bit through but I know that John Murray and others have written of a definitive sanctification and a progressive sanctification and I wonder if the same distinction doesn't apply to justification: a definitive (one off) act of justification at conversation and a progressive (on going) work of justifying.<BR/>I'm sure that the way the ordo salutis is usually frame might struggle to take account of such distinctions.<BR/>I don't think consideration of the ordo salutis is without value but it is long overdue for reformed Christians to take account of your historia salutis. The great big God of the bible has a great big story of salvation that he has achieved/is achieving in Christ Jesus.Gordon Kennedyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16357195933614825023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-61306007783161821832007-07-02T12:06:00.000-05:002007-07-02T12:06:00.000-05:00Dr. Bird,Do you think there would be less confusio...Dr. Bird,<BR/><BR/>Do you think there would be less confusion and more agreement if Wright and others would articulate their understanding of the "active and passive justifications" which McGarth comments as "The distinction refers to the act of God by which the sinner is justified (active justification), and the subjective feelings of grace subsequently evoked in the conscience of the justified sinner(passive). God acts to justify humanity is passive in receiving this justification. The importance of the distinction lies in the fact that God's act of justification, in which the sinner is declared righteous, is perfect, accomplished once and for all, whereas the realisation by humans of this state of justifcation is imperfect, in so far as it is based upon the feeling of grace evoked in this conscience" (pg. 271)<BR/><BR/>Therefore, it seems that Reformed theologians, according to McGrath, believed that regeneration came both prior and posterior to justification with the "divine/objective" justification coming before regeneration. McGrath states: "the Reformed theologians were able to state that faith was posterior to objective, and prior to subjective justification" )pg. 272)Dan Chenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17220768836864625740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-49529577641640357302007-07-02T08:23:00.000-05:002007-07-02T08:23:00.000-05:00Nice post Big Bird. BTW: What do you make of Wrigh...Nice post Big Bird. BTW: What do you make of Wright's practical absence of discussion on sanctification, whether in the ordo or not?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-3666052249028002342007-07-02T07:35:00.000-05:002007-07-02T07:35:00.000-05:00Ordo salutis or historia salutis, it make no diffe...Ordo salutis or historia salutis, it make no difference. God is multifarious.geoffhudson.blogspot.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14724916983698195467noreply@blogger.com