tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post2561910750044760678..comments2024-03-27T03:32:53.817-05:00Comments on Euangelion: Rob Bell InterviewsMichael F. Birdhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09713482855679578651noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-44139940728647716162011-03-27T17:56:25.112-05:002011-03-27T17:56:25.112-05:00Joel, do you have two different versions of this p...Joel, do you have two different versions of this post? There is a different one in my feeder. Though here you mentioned you haven't read the book yet, but my feeder version indicates you have (?). Uh....JM O'Clairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13171066290239450750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-19165273505053364902011-03-16T19:26:48.476-05:002011-03-16T19:26:48.476-05:00Interesting. We comfortable Westerners sometimes w...Interesting. We comfortable Westerners sometimes want the mercy to be supreme because it's an easier sell (no doubt Bonhoeffer would have something to say on that). But, it also seems to be many of the same Westerners who are hellbent (pun intended) on the bad guys getting obliterated ("Western" takes on a double-meaning here?). I wonder whose sense of justice is being sought here - ours (often carrying the offense of others) or God's? God tells <i>us</i> to love our enemies, but <i>He</i> can love them into eternal torment? ("Go ahead. Make my eternity.")CrazyLoverWannabehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02486684790194138022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-71536321157485404052011-03-16T18:16:06.592-05:002011-03-16T18:16:06.592-05:00I meant chiming in; not choking in :).I meant chiming in; not choking in :).Joel Willittshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02042392686311490603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-34057636302208637252011-03-16T18:11:15.202-05:002011-03-16T18:11:15.202-05:00Scott good to see u choking in. I know you've ...Scott good to see u choking in. I know you've thought about this. Looking at the issue diachronically in rhe it,there was no conception of life after death. It was in the 2nd temple period when Jews began ro conceive of life after death. Furthermore this speculation largely emerged in the experience of martyrdom. In these circumstances it would understandable that ancient Jews conceived of an eternal punishment of their oppressors. I wonder what the view of an oppressed group would be. I fine it interesing that it is comfortable western Christians doing this speculation attempting to make Christian doctrine more platable to disaffected westerners.Joel Willittshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02042392686311490603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-36312966816668122582011-03-16T17:39:34.597-05:002011-03-16T17:39:34.597-05:00Joel,
As I've mentioned in conversation with ...Joel,<br /><br />As I've mentioned in conversation with you, I tend to agree with Robin. I can understand "justice" in terms of evildoers getting their "just desserts" so to speak. I just can't see how an <i>eternity</i> of torment justly recompenses a rather finite amount of evildoing. I often wonder how much of this justice was intended to be meted out in the next life versus this one? Even given all this, one wonders if it is just for anyone to receive punishment (eternally) if Christ paid the penalty for ALL on the cross. Wouldn't God applying the penalty to anyone be unjust to His son?<br /><br />Scott Arnold<br /><br />PS: Imagine I've opened a can of worms here.CrazyLoverWannabehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02486684790194138022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-43873377073655887772011-03-15T17:46:34.205-05:002011-03-15T17:46:34.205-05:00Great post Mr Willitts!
In end, love DOES win. So ...Great post Mr Willitts!<br />In end, love DOES win. So does justice.Matt Vineyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05794435530900721785noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-3768700120966074052011-03-15T17:19:20.348-05:002011-03-15T17:19:20.348-05:00Joel,
I got an advance copy of the book this week...Joel,<br /><br />I got an advance copy of the book this weekend and have already read it. First, it is not as scandalous as the overly reactionary evangelical community is insisting. Second, I hope you will weigh in later, with more (and hopefully more insightful and substantive) reflections, after you have read it. <br /><br />Best, <br /><br />Chris Skinner<br />http://pejeiesous.comChristopher W. Skinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11962045745879885164noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-21660510213194213102011-03-15T17:17:13.759-05:002011-03-15T17:17:13.759-05:00Joel,
I have been hearing lots about this book. ...Joel,<br /><br />I have been hearing lots about this book. Any chance you could post a review of it? I would love to hear your thoughts.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08539870293823799384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-11465768793514780292011-03-15T16:07:08.283-05:002011-03-15T16:07:08.283-05:00"for love to win, something or someone has to..."for love to win, something or someone has to lose."<br /><br />Well said, Joel.Geraldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14013963385157671557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-57510755864668596482011-03-15T12:52:57.144-05:002011-03-15T12:52:57.144-05:00Joel,
I appreciate your approach to this book and...Joel,<br /><br />I appreciate your approach to this book and this moment within evangelicalism, and the larger church. I think I've learned more from all of this then I have so far in seminary. I've learned that even before we give our theological conclusions, or before the church as a whole affirms, or rejects something, I need to be quick to listen and slow to speak. Especially, if I will ever pastor a local church. I need to continue to learn this, in light of failing to do this before reading the book. I need to listen to the author, God's Word, my family, my friends, neighbors, strangers, and listen some more. Some lines will be drawn and perspectives will be affirmed or rejected but if I'm quick to speak and don't listen to others, then I should quit seminary and reconsider pastoral ministry. <br /><br />May God continue to bless your ministry at North Park and within the Church.<br /><br />Stephen MookStephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05783444720671516460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-41395159675481570882011-03-15T12:52:45.026-05:002011-03-15T12:52:45.026-05:00Robin:
Thanks for weighing in. I value your opinio...Robin:<br />Thanks for weighing in. I value your opinion very much and you've obviously thought more about this than I have. In addition I've not had a chance to read the book yet. It hasn't come to my mailbox. So my comments are coming from the interview. I'm not sure I'm comfortable dissecting "thing" from "person". It seems to me that those who perpetrate "death" through their actions are equally banished with death. The Gospel as I read it teaches that the oppressors will be punished and the oppressed vindicated. When you are oppressed (and I can only imagine here since I live in the very wealth and affluent US), nothing short of vindication (which must entail judgment) seems just. If one envisages a punishment with little to no teeth (like no punishment at all or something of a self-inflicted punishment of choice only as it sounded like RB was advocating), it doesn't to me at least make sense of the biblical expectations of justice. If you do bad things (and I think these should be relationally understood), you are punished at judgment, if you do good things you are rewarded at judgment.Joel Willittshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02042392686311490603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-31300155289624833592011-03-15T12:49:09.174-05:002011-03-15T12:49:09.174-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Stephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05783444720671516460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-87081840049324002182011-03-15T12:29:29.451-05:002011-03-15T12:29:29.451-05:00Joel
Thanks for that. You write, "at least o...Joel<br /><br />Thanks for that. You write, "at least one thing that is missing in Rob’s proposal is that for love to win, something or someone has to lose"<br /><br />Perhaps, but that something does not have to be a someone. How about "Love wins—sin loses." Or "Love wins—death loses." That kind of thing. Surely it is not true that one has to say "for love to win some people have to lose."<br /><br />You add: "With biblical salvation comes judgment."<br /><br />Absolutely, but Rob Bell would not deny that (see ch. 3 of his new book). Judgement need not imply "end-of-story" for the one judged. Judgement may be part of the journey towards restoration (as it was so often in Scripture).<br /><br />Pax<br /><br />Robin<br />p.s. (my verification word was "singags" - hmmmm)Robin Parryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08856329564156757485noreply@blogger.com