tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post6783838034781042864..comments2024-03-27T03:32:53.817-05:00Comments on Euangelion: Mark Nanos on the “weak” in 1 Corinthians 8—11, Part TwoMichael F. Birdhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09713482855679578651noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-30085684622972199232008-04-11T18:20:00.000-05:002008-04-11T18:20:00.000-05:00Loren:OK, good point. But one would have to assume...Loren:<BR/><BR/>OK, good point. But one would have to assume Mark's unique interpreation of Romans 14 first before having one instance of Paul using familial language applied to outsiders. This is less than persuasive evidence for Mark's interpretation of 1 Cor 8. There is no positive evidence for taking adelphos as a reference to outsiders. If there was I would be inclined to the view, I really would, but there isn't.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-75266902431901337812008-04-11T12:15:00.000-05:002008-04-11T12:15:00.000-05:00Joel,even for the sake of argument we agree that M...Joel,<BR/><BR/><I>even for the sake of argument we agree that Mark is right about the strong and the weak in Romans 14, the fact that Paul uses familial language for a Judean seems reasonable given the hereditary nature of the relationship between Paul and other Israelites. Paul would see a fellow Israelite as a brother, but not a non-Israelite.</I><BR/><BR/>The trouble with this line of reasoning is that Paul is addressing the strong (the Gentile majority) in Rome in saying, "if your brother is being injured...". He isn't instructing fellow Judean believers but Gentile believers.<BR/><BR/>But I think Paul's familial language is reasonable in any case, in view of his belief that Christ died for the benefit of (literally) everyone. It's rare when fictive kinship language applies to outsiders, but some contexts do warrant it -- and the way I read him, Paul wants to get as many outsiders saved as possible before the end. So, as Mark suggests, the Christology of Rom 5 lies behind his use of "brothers" for unbelievers in the contexts of I Cor 8 and Rom 14-15.Loren Rosson IIIhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15002312216839280976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-80031182324115332442008-04-11T11:00:00.000-05:002008-04-11T11:00:00.000-05:00loren:Thanks for your comment, but I even for the ...loren:<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your comment, but I even for the sake of argument we agree that Mark is right about the strong and the weak in Romans 14, the fact that Paul uses familial language for a Judean seems reasonable given the hereditary nature of the relationship between Paul and other Israelites. Paul would see a fellow Israelite as a brother, but not a non-Israelite. <BR/><BR/>Also, it is true that Christian idolators should be expelled and indeed are and that is the concern of 1 Cor 8. There is a propensity among some within the community of faith to apostatize and Paul thinks that church members shoulder the blame. Once a person commits idolatry they are NOT family anymore and should be treated in the way appropriate. Paul is not saying that sensibilities should be maintained, but he is saying that the reality is that there are people that there are even more people in threat of apostasy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-53154898325554927412008-04-11T09:09:00.000-05:002008-04-11T09:09:00.000-05:00Joel,Thanks for reviewing Mark's essay. Unlike you...Joel,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for reviewing Mark's essay. Unlike you I think he's right on the money here. You write:<BR/><BR/><I>While showing the widespread usage of “fictive kinship” in the Mediterranean world and its potential reference to humankind (pp. 25-31), he cannot show Paul generally in this letters nor specifically 1 Corinthians uses the term in any other way than to refer to fellow believers.</I><BR/><BR/>That's assuming you're not convinced by Mark's demonstration that Paul does exactly this in Romans. "If your brother is being injured by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love" (Rom. 14:15). "It is good not to eat meat, or drink wine, or do anything that causes your brother to stumble" (Rom. 14:21). Here we have the application of "brother" for unbelieving Judeans. <BR/><BR/><I>I think he undermines his case when he appeals to 1 Cor 5:9-12 where Paul explicitly distinguishes between idolaters and those who call themselves “brother or sister”.</I><BR/><BR/>But I Cor 5 is the trump card. Paul's instructions regarding <I>Christian</I> brothers are that idolatrous sensibilities should not be accommodated in the church -- opposite his advice in I Cor 8. Christian idolaters should be expelled from the assembly (I Cor 5:11-13), while the sensibilities of non-Christian idolaters should be tolerated (I Cor 8:1-11; cf. I Cor 5:10).Loren Rosson IIIhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15002312216839280976noreply@blogger.com