tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post8686471586144029231..comments2024-03-17T02:31:41.623-05:00Comments on Euangelion: Reflections on UniversalismMichael F. Birdhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09713482855679578651noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-75414164140703973052011-03-19T16:33:50.236-05:002011-03-19T16:33:50.236-05:00I'm certainly a novice here, but I hope that M...I'm certainly a novice here, but I hope that Marshall's discussion prior to the quotation we have here offers some responses to Barth. Not that Barth was a true-blue universalist, but he definitely holds some of the positions Marshall is brushing off.Nancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07462331473004050279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-91077775973098865302011-03-18T15:21:21.611-05:002011-03-18T15:21:21.611-05:00"If martyrs for the faith receive the same de..."If martyrs for the faith receive the same destiny as those that murdered them, is there any point in suffering for the faith, and do martyrs really receive a reward that is different from what their murderers receive?"<br />This is an "ends justifies the means" argument and seems to suggest that, if a potential martyr believed in universalism they would not have bothered with all that "suffering for the faith" business. Aside from the obvious fact that many martyrs didn't necessarily "choose" their sufferings, it's clear that they counted it as all joy to be deemed worthy to suffer for Christ. It seems more consistent that these same martyrs would rejoice should universalism eventual prove true.CrazyLoverWannabehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02486684790194138022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-72717197207988192072011-03-18T15:10:29.911-05:002011-03-18T15:10:29.911-05:00The argument that universalism renders evangelism ...The argument that universalism renders evangelism moot is only relevant is you believe that any time spent in hell is tolerable and that, as a universalist, one is willing to stake another's eternity on one's own belief. I know no universalist who is willing to concede either of these. I suspect that a person in hell, even if they were absolutely convinced of universalism and that their stay would be temporary, is likely to experience a hopelessness and despair of incredible magnitude.CrazyLoverWannabehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02486684790194138022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-75853533349803046092011-03-18T15:03:00.539-05:002011-03-18T15:03:00.539-05:00I assume the book edited by Robin Parry is Univers...I assume the book edited by Robin Parry is <i>Universal Salvation? The Current Debate.</i>, edited by R.A. Parry and C.H. Partridge.CrazyLoverWannabehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02486684790194138022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-24627086855745239082011-03-18T06:22:49.500-05:002011-03-18T06:22:49.500-05:00"If martyrs for the faith receive the same de..."If martyrs for the faith receive the same destiny as those that murdered them, is there any point in suffering for the faith, and do martyrs really receive a reward that is different from what their murderers receive?"<br /><br />Not that Jesus was a martyr as such, but his death and the death of Steven paint a picture of "righteous sufferers" seeking the salvation of their murderers. They seem to want the very thing that you imply is unfair. The point of suffering for faith wasn't so they'd get "in" while the murderers would stay "out". The point was in fact to do away with such a distinction. If Steven sees his murders in heaven, there will probably be none happier than he.<br /><br />I am not a universalist, for the record, but I think the arguments against universalism that I've read are quite weak.<br /><br />It's easy to argue that Hitler surely deserves hell, but what about all those Jews he murdered that rejected Jesus as Messiah and Lord? If they end up in the same miserable place as Hitler is there any justice (in the biblical sense of the word) at all? And if they do not, then surely the lines that Evangelicalism has drawn need to be a lot more blurry, if not done away with completely.Dechttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14416263247593607473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-22689220266316794992011-03-17T08:40:35.163-05:002011-03-17T08:40:35.163-05:00Fantastic, thank-you for this reflection.Fantastic, thank-you for this reflection.Ian Hugh Claryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14686705614603192797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-51788857463530217782011-03-17T04:12:12.524-05:002011-03-17T04:12:12.524-05:00Theologist, it's in a book edited by Robin Par...Theologist, it's in a book edited by Robin Parry (can't remember the title).Michael F. Birdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09713482855679578651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-60619473668473642682011-03-17T02:25:29.330-05:002011-03-17T02:25:29.330-05:00Thanks Mike. What's the source for the Howard ...Thanks Mike. What's the source for the Howard Marshall quotation, please? You only give a brief reference in footnote [2].Steve Waltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11329462117282609569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-68646180893703644692011-03-16T21:49:12.030-05:002011-03-16T21:49:12.030-05:00"Does the depth of depravity perpetrated agai..."Does the depth of depravity perpetrated against other human beings and against the infinite holiness of God not warrant a proportionate punishment?"<br />Would not the crucifixion of Jesus and his descent into the dead/hell serve as an equally infinite punishment on our behalf? I do not have a definitive stand on universal salvation but it seems to me that the "justice" argument (also made by Calvin) fails to consider that God's justice requirement might (I say might) have been fulfilled in Christ taking our just punishment. As Barth would say it - Jesus was the "Just Judge Judged in our place." In saying this wasn't enough justice to appease God and that some (such as Hitler) must be punished as well, might we not be diminishing what Christ actually accomplished on the cross?Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03199469065153065795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-31558335760703023622011-03-16T17:28:29.142-05:002011-03-16T17:28:29.142-05:00Hi Mike,
Thanks for your thoughtful reflections. ...Hi Mike,<br /><br />Thanks for your thoughtful reflections. As I was reading your post, I was reminded of our tendency to gravitate toward doctrines, and moreover, a God, we like and understand, sometimes in contravention of God's Word. (This isn't to minimize the real exegetical issues raised on both sides of the issue.) Bonhoeffer has some incisive words on this matter in his reflection on Gen 3 in his book Creation and Fall: "The decisive point is that through this question [the serpent's question] the idea is suggested to the human being of going behind the word of God and now providing it with a human basis--a human understanding of the essential nature of God. . . . In this way the serpen purports somehow to know about the depths of the true God beyond this given word of God. . . . It requires humankind to sit in judgment on God's word instead of simply listening to it and doing it. And this is achieved by proposing that, on the basis of an idea, a principle, or some prior knowledge about God, humankind should now pass judgment on the concrete word of God . . . they have become God's master. (DBWE vol 3, 106-8) I know I see this tendency in myself, which is why I bring it up, not that I want to assume it in others.James K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/11608165055863806530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-65639497210194160302011-03-16T08:24:36.844-05:002011-03-16T08:24:36.844-05:00But, Michael, while my mind is not completely sett...But, Michael, while my mind is not completely settled on the matter, your logic here has a major hole and you leave out a key fact about the kind of universalism Robin Parry (and perhaps Rob Bell, though I have not read him) are proposing. They are not saying "no judgment" but "judgment isn't the last word and redemption happens from the place of judgment too."<br /><br />So, you would need to argue, if your case is about the logic of judgment, that sins committed now require unending judgment or there is no justice. That is a hard thing to argue.<br /><br />As for the alleged weakness of the exegesis of the universalists, your statement hardly covers the evidence and biblical theology is not best resolved with shallow prooftexting. Both sides are capable of this error. Richard Beck's recent post does an admirable job of summarizing how themes of judgment and universal redemption might work together.<br /><br />Derek LemanDerek Lemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03693937472641309402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-86782321791726808582011-03-16T06:35:37.722-05:002011-03-16T06:35:37.722-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Matt Vineyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05794435530900721785noreply@blogger.com