tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post8930786754084116942..comments2024-03-27T03:32:53.817-05:00Comments on Euangelion: Getting High on NT ChristologyMichael F. Birdhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09713482855679578651noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-49202977936728933832009-12-02T07:41:36.477-06:002009-12-02T07:41:36.477-06:00Andrew, I'm not sure to whom your comment was ...Andrew, I'm not sure to whom your comment was addressed, but my book has a chapter on the "two powers" material in the Rabbinic literature, with detailed interaction with Segal's claims regarding the dating and character of the controversy.James F. McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02561146722461747647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-69445617850099252582009-12-02T03:42:14.186-06:002009-12-02T03:42:14.186-06:00You seem to have ignored the work of Alan Segal `T...You seem to have ignored the work of Alan Segal `Two Powers in Heaven` etc. who suggests a more nuanced understanding of God existed in 1 C.E. Any comments?andrewbournehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14365466668037323684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-82309390589396267782009-11-30T08:48:57.381-06:002009-11-30T08:48:57.381-06:00I hope someone who is likely to buy you a Christma...I hope someone who is likely to buy you a Christmas present has been reading this exchange! :)<br /><br />If and when you manage to read it (you can always recommend your local library get it, too), please do let me know what you thought of its argument and conclusions!James F. McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02561146722461747647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-37848109543460663622009-11-30T08:36:55.584-06:002009-11-30T08:36:55.584-06:00Haha not in the least. It is on my wishlist to ge...Haha not in the least. It is on my wishlist to get, hopefully very soon. Thanks for your participation, I've really enjoyed this topic, especially when it was covered on your blog.JohnOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01961519860959298109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-81811559538900060112009-11-30T08:34:50.704-06:002009-11-30T08:34:50.704-06:00Not entirely. In the Diaspora for instance, it was...Not entirely. In the Diaspora for instance, it was the refusal to worship any other deity sacrificially that set Jews apart, while relatively few would have participated directly in the Temple cultus in Jerusalem.<br /><br />On the other hand, it certainly seems to be in the period after the second Jewish revolt, when hope for rebuilding the Temple received a huge setback, that both Jews and Christians began to explore other ways of setting the one God apart from all other entities.<br /><br />You're not really going to make me summarize the <i>whole</i> book here, are you? :)James F. McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02561146722461747647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-63352816438969492812009-11-30T08:28:18.632-06:002009-11-30T08:28:18.632-06:00That would seem to bring us to a sort of impasse, ...That would seem to bring us to a sort of impasse, considering the placement of the Temple in the NT and its destruction in 70AD.JohnOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01961519860959298109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-22678492939586993092009-11-30T08:24:21.104-06:002009-11-30T08:24:21.104-06:00I think that, more than anything else, it was the ...I think that, more than anything else, it was the exclusive <i>sacrificial</i> worship of God Most High that set Judaism apart from other systems of thought which also had a supreme deity and various subordinate figures, but worshipped many of them sacrificially.James F. McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02561146722461747647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-28160097460314584052009-11-30T08:21:35.090-06:002009-11-30T08:21:35.090-06:00Yes, I think yourself, Crossley, Bauckham, or Hurt...Yes, I think yourself, Crossley, Bauckham, or Hurtado recognize the inapplicability of 'Enlightenment monotheism' onto the subject (if I remember correctly, Bauckham devotes a chapter to it).<br /><br />For your case, do you see those intermediary figures as one way Judaism guarded that strict monotheism?JohnOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01961519860959298109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-46493402054443735412009-11-30T08:16:28.005-06:002009-11-30T08:16:28.005-06:00Actually, there is extensive disagreement about po...Actually, there is extensive disagreement about point one. There are some who deny that there was anything that deserves the label "monotheism" in first-century Judaism (the term itself is a modern one). Others would affirm that there was a distinctive Jewish allegiance to one God alone, but argue that it left room for the various mediator figures the significance of which Bauckham seeks to downplay.James F. McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02561146722461747647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-79190119249766656692009-11-30T08:09:42.821-06:002009-11-30T08:09:42.821-06:00From what I understand so far (having read Hurtado...From what I understand so far (having read Hurtado and Bauckham) I draw out two things. It seems that everyone agrees with point 1. Bauckham seems to argue that Jesus' inclusion within the divine identity is "within the context of Jewish monotheism". The point of argument (and I'm guessing here, I haven't read McGrath yet) is over just "how high" early Christology is, and whether or not this divine identity paradigm is even correct. Or have I missed something?JohnOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01961519860959298109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-54058105201933170242009-11-29T19:14:34.848-06:002009-11-29T19:14:34.848-06:00Thanks for mentioning my book. If at some point yo...Thanks for mentioning my book. If at some point you find the time, I'd be interested to know what you made of it!James F. McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02561146722461747647noreply@blogger.com