tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post9020326389101481268..comments2024-03-27T03:32:53.817-05:00Comments on Euangelion: The meaning of "glorified" (Rom 8:30)Michael F. Birdhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09713482855679578651noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-70460704995648991162017-04-28T06:05:20.137-05:002017-04-28T06:05:20.137-05:00Did you know that you can shorten your long links ...Did you know that you can shorten your long links with <b><a href="http://shortener.syntaxlinks.com/r/Shortest" rel="nofollow">Shortest</a></b> and <b>get $$$$$$ from every visitor to</b> your short links.Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287821785570247118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-64345005071906247032011-03-08T08:23:09.578-06:002011-03-08T08:23:09.578-06:00I am surprised that no-one has linked the concept ...I am surprised that no-one has linked the concept of glory to the Jewish sanctuary.geoffhudson.blogspot.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14724916983698195467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-50412320227451002402011-03-05T04:54:39.260-06:002011-03-05T04:54:39.260-06:00The now and not yet of glorification seems to be e...The now and not yet of glorification seems to be expressed in John.<br /><br />John 17:22-24 (ESV)<br />The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. <br /><br />Present realisation by the Spirit is also implied by Peter<br /><br />1Pet 1:8 (ESV)<br />Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, <br /><br />Heb 11:1 (Darby)<br />Now faith is the substantiating of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. <br /><br />ESV is weak with 'assurance of things hoped for' it is surely more than that; faith makes them a present reality. It means we have:<br /><br />Heb 11:13 (ESV)<br />... seen them and greeted them from afar...<br /><br />Faith focussed on Christ enables us to realise in some measure the glory.<br /><br />2Cor 3:18 (ESV)<br />And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.John Thomsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03409722788388167914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-76716940768910783312011-03-04T05:48:37.212-06:002011-03-04T05:48:37.212-06:00OK, but then shouldn't the locatedness of Paul...OK, but then shouldn't the locatedness of Paul's argument about glorification be reflected in a systematic theology, even if only in a nutshell.Andrew Perrimanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16131308483959081297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-65342970391853153482011-03-04T04:35:02.201-06:002011-03-04T04:35:02.201-06:00Johnathan: my point was to temporality in the word...Johnathan: my point was to temporality in the word in favor of verbal aspect! What is more, if glorified is a parallel concept to "will be conformed to the image of the Son", then it is conceptually future too.<br /><br />Andrew:I accept your location of Rom 8.29-30, I was writing about the meaning of "glorified" in a nutshell.Michael F. Birdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09713482855679578651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-8335968094087958612011-03-04T02:51:42.095-06:002011-03-04T02:51:42.095-06:00Michael, I don't know if you're open to th...Michael, I don't know if you're open to this sort of response, but I'll try it anyway.<br /><br />I agree that for Paul the glorification of the believer is a <i>future</i> event and for the reasons given; I don't have a problem with the idea that the aorist has a future aspect; and it may be the case that Paul thought that this future glorification was in some way anticipated in the present experience of the believer, though I am less sure of that. Where I would chiefly question your exegesis is over the interpretation of the eschatological narrative to which this glorification is the climax.<br /><br />It seems to me that Paul constructs a rather specific argument here about the participation of the "children of God" in the suffering and vindication of Jesus. They are fellow heirs with Christ <i>provided that they suffer with him in order to be glorified with him</i> (8:17). The Spirit inspires the cry "Abba! Father!" which is not just any old prayer but the prayer of Jesus <i>before his passion</i>—it is the prayer of those who face similar suffering. "Endurance" is required under conditions of eschatological suffering (8:25). The sufferings that Paul describes in 8:35 are not general to the human condition; they are the sufferings that will accompany the apostolic mission, they are the sufferings of a persecuted church. Psalm 44 tells the story of the vindication of righteous Israel against its enemies (cf. 8:36). To be a conqueror is to overcome persecution and the final recourse of their opponents, which is to kill the body (8:37; cf. Rev. 2:7 et al.).<br /><br />It seems to me, therefore, that Paul is talking primarily about the hope of vindication that the churches must hold firmly to if they are to confront persecution successfully. To be conformed to the image of the Son would be to share specifically in his vindication as the Son of Man who suffered and was raised to receive kingdom and glory from the Father. Jesus is firstborn among many brothers because he was the first among many to suffer and be raised, vindicated, glorified, for the sake of the future of the people of God.Andrew Perrimanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16131308483959081297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-53627351069734487352011-03-03T18:44:13.905-06:002011-03-03T18:44:13.905-06:00Hmmm, Michael, I love your stuff in general, more ...Hmmm, Michael, I love your stuff in general, more power to you, but I do worry about your use of Greek grammar here. A few long bows in a row I reckon. In general just leaning too hard on tense-forms to decide theological questions. They can't bear the weight, and you end up resorting to suggestions like protreptic aorist to make your point. <br /><br />If you want to show that glorification is an essentially future blessing, show us from context, from the flow of argument in the Scripture text. <br /><br />Greek grammar can support theological arguments if used carefully, but it's not very good for constructing arguments. <br /><br />Every dodgy scholar bases arguments on grammar, and you certainly don't belong in that company!Jonathan Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10007823133357987944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13840519.post-2145292334716405452011-03-03T08:56:36.862-06:002011-03-03T08:56:36.862-06:00Yes, I agree with all of that. I feel that the bi...Yes, I agree with all of that. I feel that the big weakness in Reformed theology is not making enough of what glorification implies. Sometimes the impression is given that new creation is not much more than Adam restored. This is to my mind a mistake.<br /><br />A big feature too of final new creation is a creation in some sense entirely energized by the Spirit of God. I take the transformation of the body to be a kind of synecdoche for the whole of creation; a creation modelled on what is heavenly and of the Spirit (while still physical) rather than 'earthy'. 1 Cor 15 is a vital passage. Christ/Adam... earthy/heavenly... living soul/life giving spirit... seed/flower.<br /><br />Incidentally, I find OT scholars generally weak on the dramatic transformation of new creation because their horizon is limited to OT revelation which although it sees the newness does not reveal it with the clarity of the new.John Thomsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03409722788388167914noreply@blogger.com